0.7.2 Preview r814

[Nicholas]

PREVIEW r814
Download from the pink box above.

IMPORTANT: Score changes! Things are changing in a big way. If you don't want to poison your scoreboards with scores that are going to be wildly varying over the next couple previews, feel free to not download this preview.

Changes in r814 since r811:

• Max multiplier is now 2.5x.
• Precision-based scoring is gone. All notes will give the full 100 (x multiplier x speed) points.
• Coldmiser did it! Through a bunch of his research, the ancient silent-after-about-a-minute QuickTime synth bug now has a work-around: the "Discard Pedal Events while using QuickTime synth" option under advanced. Obviously this will turn off any sort of sustain pedal events, so only enable this if you're affected by the bug.

I was going to be a little more aggressive and try to get duration-held-based scoring in there at the same time. I was doing it too hastily though and things started to fall apart all over the place. So, I rolled those changes back until I had little longer to think about them.

Tell me how the new scoring feels. Hopefully it's a lot less random feeling. Until duration-based scoring is in, I'm willing to bet it's going to feel too samey.

[TonE]

Did the scoring system change in any way for the practice mode? I assume, not, as the practice mode punishs you anyway by adding more time to your finishing time result. I like the practice mode as it feels like 100 metres hurdles and you only have to be fast, making as few errors as possible. But I hope in future the durations will be also considered in practice mode.

[aria1121]

Thanks, Coldmiser! Max multiplier 2.5? Why?

[Nicholas]

Did the scoring system change in any way for the practice mode?

No changes to practice mode (yet?)...

We didn't talk about that one much over in the scoring topic. Right now practice scoring feels pretty good to me. What about you guys?

Thanks, Coldmiser! Max multiplier 2.5? Why?

See that link above. Lots of discussion there about the reasoning.

[aria1121]

Ok.

[Nicholas]

Did the scoring system change in any way for the practice mode?

Regarding this (again), I was hoping the held-notes thing was going to affect practice mode somehow. That's a more interesting problem though because those scores are normalized to so max.

So maybe that ceiling needs to adjust to the usual number of things you could do correctly plus holding notes for their absolute full duration every time.

As for the scoring of held-notes, I'm thinking of some continuous measure based on a points-per-second (at least in rhythm mode) where the point you hit the note is tracked until the point you release and you're given points based on that duration.

Of course, I want the score display to constantly be incrementing to show that difference because that's exciting to see... so even though I'll be modeling it as a lump sum you get at the key release, hopefully I'll be able to show it during the press.

So yeah, the next preview will affect practice mode scoring. Assuming you've been tapping notes as quickly and shortly as possible, you should see your scores decrease pretty substantially. If you've been holding most of the notes the correct duration, they should only decrease a little.

To compensate, I might bump the theoretical max in practice mode by 2x or something so you don't feel like you can never reach your old scores again.

[Nicholas]

(Probably not worth mentioning, but it's technically dev work: the feature voting page should now be a little snappier. Especially while adding and removing stars. It's still not super-fast, but at least it won't drive me crazy anymore. )

[cairnz]

Oh, that's nice, trying to put a couple of stars on some stuff took what felt like ages.

I need to get down this new version and try out the scoring.

My $0.02 on practice mode is that it should not have a "score" per se, like "normal" mode. In guitar hero 3 (and probably newer) - practice mode shows you % of notes hit, note streak and x/y notes hit. More for your own pleasure than getting a score.

[TonE]

To compensate, I might bump the theoretical max in practice mode by 2x

From my point of view it is ok to keep the old 1x score factor.

My $0.02 on practice mode is that it should not have a "score" per se, like "normal" mode. In guitar hero 3 (and probably newer) - practice mode shows you % of notes hit, note streak and x/y notes hit. More for your own pleasure than getting a score.

I play Synthesia almost always in practice mode and I like the scores there, for the game fun.

[Nicholas]

My $0.02 on practice mode is that it should not have a "score" per se...

Yeah, there was kind of a public out-cry when practice mode was first added.

Everyone loved it (I personally almost don't use rhythm mode at all any more) but they immediately wanted some way to figure out if they were improving.

It was all people talked about for a couple weeks.

[cairnz]

I don't use anything but it myself either, but that's cause i suck at the piano (still). Practice is still practice, and imho it should show a more "analysis" oriented performance. This could ofcourse aggregate into an overall "rating" - but the score - atleast when you're going online, should be in such a way that everyone has to do -exactly- the same - in other words, play along with the track.

I personally would like to see more a detailed analysis on what i am doing "wrong" in practice.

* Average delay per note
* Maximum delay
* Max speed streak (playing within 0.x sec per note)
* Accuracy streak (without hitting wrong notes)
* Perfection streak (within 0.x & not hitting wrong notes)

Based on analysing the track, synthesia could give a suggestion on what to practice more on, in what direction you'd mostly benefit from practice. If you can analyze the track and "know" when a chord is coming, or any other recognizable pattern, you can break down the score even more. If it told you to practice on chords, it would be because your lowest "score" was coming from when chords are coming up.

[Nicholas]

Yeah, those are all awesome ideas.

Just the idea that you don't see the score (in practice mode) until the song is over hints at the idea of entering a "now show me how I did" mode. The "Performance Analysis" item on the voting list (which stands a good chance of making it into this 6 month development period) is a really great start. You'll actually be able to go and review your note timings overlaid on the song's notes.

Adding more metrics and even changing how things are scored depending on what type of practice you're engaged in are both really cool ideas.

My gut feeling is also that practice mode scores shouldn't make it online... but if the three of us just finished saying that practice mode is the only way we play, I dunno. My gut feeling also said there shouldn't be a score associated with it at all -- and I got yelled at for that.

[cairnz]

Well - yeah - currently the only difference between practice and the other is that it pauses. However, this could be expanded. Practice mode could be "extended" as it is today giving you analysis based score for single player.

The Online "Score" mode could be in two parts - continous and hit-to-proceed modes; where the hit-to-proceed is like todays practice, and gives a regular "score" that would get posted online.

On the other hand, how are you going to make sure that stuff people play for online scoring is identical? will you allow any kind of midi to get posted on scoreboard (like audiosurf does, it's a pain, cause i play tracks that never anyone else has a score on ) - or will there be a preset "selection" of midis - perhaps baked into the executable itself to avoid "easy" tampering.

[Nicholas]

I'm still designing this stuff, so I would love to hear feedback and it's all subject to change, but...

While I haven't seen it in AudioSurf, I kind of suspected that phenomenon could happen. If I break down every single option combination into being a separate score board, it would look like it was always empty. Hopefully I'll be able to merge the scores from most modes into something people can all see at once. That's a lot of hand-waving right now but it's my goal.

At the same time, I do want it to be flexible with outside MIDI. I would imagine the scoreboards for custom songs will be less full than the built-in songs, but it does allow for some neat community behavior (e.g., weekly contests with song X).

I wonder... if I can make missing notes feel less like a penalty (the F on the score screen never feels good), I wonder if no matter how many You Play tracks you have enabled, if it will always put them on the same scoreboard. Only playing the left hand? You'll probably get about half as many points as both hands... but maybe there isn't a reason to score them separately. That would go a long way toward merging lots of scoreboards together.

It would make it harder to tell how well you're improving with just that hand though. Maybe it could be a filter on top of the single scoreboard or something.

[tommai78101]

Like I mentioned somewhere else, we could compete who has reached the highest combo for hitting correct notes in a row, then use that statistics and do the math of it.

First, we would calculate how many notes (selected by preference and track selection) in total.
Then, we would watch how high a user can go.
Then, we we use the combo score and do some math.
Then, we would poll the final results up onto the online scoreboard. With the name, percentage (Highest combo / Total notes * 100%) under what category (labeling which tracks were/weren't You Play), and then some additional stuffs that we can separate them from other similar subcategories.
Finally, we compete for the best.

[cairnz]

While I haven't seen it in AudioSurf, I kind of suspected that phenomenon could happen. If I break down every single option combination into being a separate score board, it would look like it was always empty. Hopefully I'll be able to merge the scores from most modes into something people can all see at once. That's a lot of hand-waving right now but it's my goal.

In audiosurf you just choose a local MP3 and you're golden. Considering the vast amount of varieties between each mp3 out there - you'd have a hard time getting the "total-total" for that track.

At the same time, I do want it to be flexible with outside MIDI. I would imagine the scoreboards for custom songs will be less full than the built-in songs, but it does allow for some neat community behavior (e.g., weekly contests with song X).

Definitely. Community growing is always nice. I would suggest that (atleast in the beginning) - you'd only open up certain songs for the scoreboard.

I wonder... if I can make missing notes feel less like a penalty (the F on the score screen never feels good), I wonder if no matter how many You Play tracks you have enabled, if it will always put them on the same scoreboard. Only playing the left hand? You'll probably get about half as many points as both hands... but maybe there isn't a reason to score them separately. That would go a long way toward merging lots of scoreboards together.

You're the developer, you can make anything

It would make it harder to tell how well you're improving with just that hand though. Maybe it could be a filter on top of the single scoreboard or something.

Scoreboards != practice.

I guess (which i didn't mention above) is that i feel (atleast official) scoreboard songs should not have song selection screen. Everything should be preset so it's ready to roll/score/fail This way you'll not have to worry about having both track, left track, right track versions of the same song.

This leads me on to something you could get help from the community from. Difficulty levels; but this should be in a different topic. I'll make a post if i can't find any. Difficulty levels like in guitar hero where you play only certain parts, but still in a "complex" piece.

[cairnz]

An issue (not related to only this version i suppose)

Song list:
* Number of plays does not care what instruments you play - so if you have 5 plays using single hands, you can be surprised when you hit an "empty" scoreboard because it's the first both-hands playthrough.
* Sonatina Piccatina is listed in Easy music (it's way harder than most other pieces there and is three times as long, atleast!)

Could we have an option where it doesn't exit the song (in practice mode) even though you've finished ? would be nice to be able to just scroll back to practice on that end, instead of having to click around down on the measure bars?

[Mos]

just a quick idea about online scores:

I like the idea about not listing the practice mode. but even with the play mode, you still have lots of variations. How about setting 3 or so standardized difficulties and using those for the online scoring.

also, do you have a plan to deal with different midi files (you will get 100 midi for the same song)? I mean the best thing about online scoring is the fact you can compare your score with other people, how would you do that with different versions of the same song and things like that?

[Nicholas]

Number of plays does not care what instruments you play...

That's by design. That number is really just so you can sort and see which songs you play most often (regardless of mode).

For what it's worth, while you fiddle with settings on the track setup screen, it should update your highest score down at the bottom so you can tell which configurations you've played before or not. It's not the entire list, but it's something.

Sonatina Piccatina is listed in Easy music...

For what it's worth, Gilbert has it listed in Easy at G Major Music Theory, where I got those originally...

You're right that it's much longer. And it's certainly the hardest of the bunch, though it doesn't seem much worse than the Ode to Joy that is in that same section. (Well, OK, the last section is really fast.) I wonder if something about the fingerings makes it really easy. Maybe all those arpeggio-type things require almost no hand movement or something.

Could we have an option where it doesn't exit the song (in practice mode) even though you've finished ? would be nice to be able to just scroll back to practice on that end, instead of having to click around down on the measure bars?

This is hopefully what "Bookmark Repeating/Looping" should get you. And with any luck, I'll be starting work on that in a couple days.

[Nicholas]

How about setting 3 or so standardized difficulties and using those for the online scoring.

Which 3? That's kind of what I've had in mind, but I've had trouble defining them. For the built-in songs it's not so bad -- we can hand-pick which sets of tracks are "left", "right", and "both". With MIDI out in the wild, you can't tell which sets are the correct ones to lump into the standardized modes. It's a tough problem. I still don't have any good answers.

do you have a plan to deal with different midi files (you will get 100 midi for the same song)?

So, not really. The fact that the game ships with like 3 different Ode to Joy's... all of which are dramatically different in difficulty means you can't really reconcile that problem. Every arrangement can be totally different for a given song.

At the very least, it's not quite as bad as MP3 (in something like AudioSurf). Lots of programs mess with MP3 files. Any time you change an ID3 tag the file changes. Each person that rips the song (even from the same CD) might use different encoding options or different encoding library. That changes the file.

MIDI is pretty stable. They're small enough that it's easier to share than it is to create your own. And I already have the checksum thing built in so you can name the file whatever you want and I'll still detect it as the same song. Hopefully that will make the problem a little less bad.