Online Scoreboard

Archived development update discussion from past versions
Archived development updates.
Nicholas
Posts: 12351

Post by Nicholas » 11-18-10 4:51 pm

Scoreboard is up! Available in the main nav on the site.
  • Example of top-level scoreboard list.
  • Example of scores for a top-level grouped scoreboard.
  • Example of scores for a particular song.
  • Example of statistics for a particular user.
EDIT: Also, a little "Scores" link under each of your names next to your posts. ;)

Typhlosion
Posts: 82

Post by Typhlosion » 11-18-10 7:16 pm

Yay! That's very cool :D
I hope Release Cadidate 2 with metronome recital will come out soon!^^

Nicholas
Posts: 12351

Post by Nicholas » 11-18-10 8:05 pm

Oh yeah, I forgot you guys don't have that yet. ;)

That will be in the first 0.8.1 preview... which I should probably start planning out now that the scoreboard stuff is done.

Raymond
Posts: 528
Location: United States, Washington

Post by Raymond » 11-19-10 5:17 pm

Whats your plan for the unknown songs? (Unknown song)
A lot of the songs I use don't have the full name any where in the MIDI file. (not even the name.)

Are users going to be able to submit a names for a song. Then allow for voting of names so you can have the best name being used?

Also shouldn't the "Part" display the track name for unknown songs?

Nicholas
Posts: 12351

Post by Nicholas » 11-20-10 1:24 am

No plans yet for unknown songs. I think that will tie more into the online song library stuff. Once you can submit songs (and rate/comment on them... and possibly set a price for your own compositions), the metadata can be associated with them. Until then, I think "(Unknown Song)" is as good as it's gonna get. A community-driven naming approach isn't a bad idea, but until you can listen to the song yourself to hear what it is, it'll be tough to vote on the best name.

In the meantime, I'm hoping to make the online scoreboard stuff feel a little bit more dynamic. I don't like having to drill through a handful of pages to see if anything exciting has happened recently. I'm thinking of adding a section to the top-level page with something like "Recent Activity". Not quite sure how far I'm going to go with it yet, but at the very least I'd like to see a little running log like:

- Raymond played Song Name Here 25 minutes ago, and climbed to #2 in the G Major - Hard category.

I think something like that would be ideal. Hopefully that will give a better sense of activity, too. I almost want to make something like that an RSS feed. I'm hungry for those kinds of updates. ;)

Raymond
Posts: 528
Location: United States, Washington

Post by Raymond » 11-20-10 12:56 pm

I wouldn't mind setting the name of the unknown songs I play.

Would a tag system work so we could add tags to a song? (Piano Only, Easy, Christmas)
Then we could search for tags to find songs on the site. And maybe it would work in-game too.

Nicholas
Posts: 12351

Post by Nicholas » 11-22-10 3:03 am

Alright, recent activity is now shown on the scores page. It does consolidate repeat submissions for the same user/song pair (only showing the highest score), but otherwise it's a pretty raw data stream.

Also, a breakdown of a particular user's scores for a specific group is now available. You can get there via the "(breakdown)" links on a user's page.

That feels way better. Now there is some data synthesis going on and you can get a feel for the level of activity.

There are still a few more obvious additions: "Most played song this week/month/etc.", "Most active user this X", and other aggregate statistics like that. Though, I think I'll let some data build up for a while before adding them. It definitely feels usable as-is.

User avatar
HealyHQ
Posts: 8
Location: KY, USA

Post by HealyHQ » 11-22-10 7:19 am

Oh, man, this is sweet! :D

You have the dates listed in which the high score was obtained, what rank a user is in specific Song Groups, and the recent activity feed really makes the whole scoreboard page feel alive and evolving! Nothing but goodness here. Awesome update. :)

~ Robert :ugeek:
~ Robert B. Healy III
My Blog: http://HealyHQ.com

"Well it's not just a daydream if you decide to make it your life." -- Train

Auron
Posts: 5

Post by Auron » 11-22-10 10:38 am

I think it would be nice to add a column to the statistics page of every user indicating the placement associated to every single entry along with its own category. Maybe something like:

Song | Part | Score | Category | Position | Date
__________________________________________________________________

Sevivon, Sov, Sov, Sov | Right | 9828 | G Major Music - Hard | #3 | 11/22/2010
...

Or similar. Do you get the idea? :)

maccer
Posts: 222
Location: Sweden

Post by maccer » 11-22-10 1:34 pm

I agree, either a statistics page or expandable categories (so that you don't have to go to a separate page) would be useful.

About the anonymous scores: should they really be allowed/shown? I don't see the point - you have no idea who you're competing against, and the lists get filled with them. I think you should at least force the user to type in some name, but I would prefer "forum account only" score submission.

By the way, I guess you should remove my #1 score for Big Bad Goblin Blues as it was achieved using 120% speed? It's probably impossible to get a score that high using 100% speed.
Songs learned using Synthesia:
CT: Wind Scene, The Trial | FF7: Prelude | SMB: Overworld, Underwater | Tetris: Theme A | Zelda: Lost Woods | Other: Für Elise

User avatar
jimhenry
Posts: 1800
Location: Illinois

Post by jimhenry » 11-22-10 2:07 pm

maccer wrote:By the way, I guess you should remove my #1 score for Big Bad Goblin Blues as it was achieved using 120% speed? It's probably impossible to get a score that high using 100% speed.
If you can get that score at 120% speed, then I think you've earned the top spot! :)

Should the speed be another column in the score?

As for other information to collect and track, should you collect the number of times the piece has been played? I don't think that needs to be displayed but I can see it as a useful piece of data for assessing the skill level of a player when using their scoe to establish a difficulty level of a song. If someone scores well on a song after playing only a few times, then that song is presumably easier than a song that they score equally well on but only after playing it many times.
Jim Henry
Author of the Miditzer, a free virtual theatre pipe organ
http://www.Miditzer.org/

Nicholas
Posts: 12351

Post by Nicholas » 11-22-10 2:47 pm

HealyHQ wrote:...the recent activity feed really makes the whole scoreboard page feel alive and evolving!
Yeah, that was exactly the feeling I was hoping to get out of it. Before you couldn't really tell if people were using it or not.
Auron wrote:I think it would be nice to add a column ... indicating the placement...
Yeah, that's an easy add now. I hadn't quite dusted off all of my SQL Fu the first time around, but rest assured I had to for this second step. There are some pretty impressive queries going on behind the scenes now. ;)

I've tackled the "placement" problem and have a pretty good answer now and it definitely feels like useful information. Because that list doesn't get updated unless your submission is an improvement over a previous one, the places listed there will be correct.
maccer wrote:About the anonymous scores: should they really be allowed/shown?
I wanted to feel this out. On the one hand, I didn't want all the scoreboards to feel completely dead. Seeing the entire recent activity list filled with stuff less than 2 hours old is pretty cool. On the other, I'm planning to mostly add the "good" tracking features (like the breakdowns, and the upcoming "most active user" type stuff) for forum-people only. When I first wrote the message in the game about the benefits of using a forum account, it was vague because none of this stuff existed yet. Now I can change the wording to make it sound way more appealing.

Also, I might be able to give a toggle to show/hide anonymous scores. That would be some effort though.
maccer wrote:By the way, I guess you should remove my #1 score for Big Bad Goblin Blues as it was achieved using 120% speed?
I dunno, maybe that can be your reward for finding the bug? :D

Nah, you're probably right. Though, I hate to take it away from you. Like Jim said, you pretty much earned it.
jimhenry wrote:Should the speed be another column in the score?
Because it was very close to release, I decided to tackle the speed bug just by locking things to 100%, so there isn't any variation right now. I do still hope to add a couple brackets (again, something like 50%, 75%, and 100%). Then it might be useful to collect that type of info. Though, since I'm already lumping left/right/both performances together, maybe it's less interesting. Playing at 50% you'll never be able to obtain the score you can at 100%...
jimhenry wrote:...I can see it as a useful piece of data for assessing the skill level of a player when using their score to establish a difficulty level of a song.
Yeah, this is the kind of stuff I love. There is already a little discrepancy in the tracking: a submission is basically ignored if you already have a better score for that song's part. That makes it much easier to show the rest of the stats, but I wonder if there shouldn't be some parallel tracking going on in some giant logging table so I can crunch the kind of numbers you're talking about. There probably should be.

maccer
Posts: 222
Location: Sweden

Post by maccer » 11-23-10 2:49 pm

Nicholas wrote:Also, I might be able to give a toggle to show/hide anonymous scores. That would be some effort though.
Yes, that would be a solution, but I still can't see the point in having anonymous scores at all. If a user gets a good enough score (say, 30% of the maximum possible score or top 1000) but hasn't created a profile, you could ask the user if he/she wants to submit the score "You obtained a score of 12345 which would put you at place #8 in the online scoreboard. Do you want to submit the score to the online scoreboard? If so, please create a Synthesia profile first!", and then force the user to create a profile.
maccer wrote:By the way, I guess you should remove my #1 score for Big Bad Goblin Blues as it was achieved using 120% speed?
If you're going to remove it I would prefer if you do it ASAP so that I can re-compete at 100% speed ;) I probably won't be able to beat Typhlosion at 100%, that's why I chose 120% to begin with :). Big Bad Goblin Blues wasn't that hard at 120%, but some songs are too fast at 100% - for example "Do Your Ears Hang Low": in the middle of that song there are a lot of notes that must be played in a surprisingly quick succession for being an easy song.
jimhenry wrote:Should the speed be another column in the score?
If you're going to allow speeds other than 100%, then the speed should be shown. Especially if you're going to allow speeds greater than 100% - if I didn't know that a #1 score was obtained at 120%, I would try to beat it at 100% but it would simply not be possible. That would drive me mad after a while. Also, I guess playing a song perfectly at 90% could give more points than a less-than-perfect 100% run.
Nicholas wrote:There is already a little discrepancy in the tracking: a submission is basically ignored if you already have a better score for that song's part. That makes it much easier to show the rest of the stats, but I wonder if there shouldn't be some parallel tracking going on in some giant logging table so I can crunch the kind of numbers you're talking about. There probably should be.
A logging table of course gives you a lot of info (and could maybe be used to track cheaters in some way) but it could grow huge. On the other hand, won't you need something like that for the performance analysis you're going to implement anyway?
An option would be to have two counters for each score row: one that counts the amount of tries until you got your best score, and another that counts every score submission for that song even if the score was smaller than your best score.
Songs learned using Synthesia:
CT: Wind Scene, The Trial | FF7: Prelude | SMB: Overworld, Underwater | Tetris: Theme A | Zelda: Lost Woods | Other: Für Elise

maccer
Posts: 222
Location: Sweden

Post by maccer » 11-23-10 2:53 pm

jimhenry wrote:If someone scores well on a song after playing only a few times, then that song is presumably easier than a song that they score equally well on but only after playing it many times.
The question is how much that metric will tell you, though. The user may know the song from before, or he/she may have played it using the various practice modes 50 times first. That's what I do anyway:
1. I try to play a song in online recital.
2. If it seems difficult I switch to practice mode and play it through maybe 5-10 times in total (with right, left and then both hands) and then
3. I try the online recital again.
Songs learned using Synthesia:
CT: Wind Scene, The Trial | FF7: Prelude | SMB: Overworld, Underwater | Tetris: Theme A | Zelda: Lost Woods | Other: Für Elise

User avatar
jimhenry
Posts: 1800
Location: Illinois

Post by jimhenry » 11-23-10 4:54 pm

I was assuming the number of plays would include at least the rhythm practices. Remember this isn't for display, only to use your experience to rate the difficulty of the song. Of course, if someone happened to know the song from outside of Synthesia the data will be off. Hopefully there would be enough data that such a data point wouldn't throw things off too much. Probably shouldn't try to rate a song without data from some minimum number of players.
Jim Henry
Author of the Miditzer, a free virtual theatre pipe organ
http://www.Miditzer.org/

Nicholas
Posts: 12351

Post by Nicholas » 11-24-10 3:25 am

maccer wrote:"... Do you want to submit the score to the online scoreboard? If so, please create a Synthesia profile first!"
The scoreboard needs to be zero-effort for discoverability. If that takes allowing no profile creation whatsoever, that's what it takes. I haven't looked at the numbers yet, but I'm guessing simple/anonymous usage is around 20x forum-user usage. I think over time that will shift, but for now, I'm happy knowing 20x more people are seeing that it exists than aren't.

I do need to start advertising the benefits of a Synthesia Account (forums, wiki, voting, more score stats, and more eventually), but I don't ever want to force it.
maccer wrote:... I would prefer if you do it ASAP so that I can re-compete at 100% speed ;)
Sorry about that. I just wiped it. Got rid of PeteD'Cheet's too, while I was at it. ;)
maccer wrote:Also, I guess playing a song perfectly at 90% could give more points than a less-than-perfect 100% run.
The same is true for left/right hand parts vs. both. It's actually pretty common to get a higher score on "Hard" in Guitar Hero than it is on "Expert" (until your skill level is really up there, anyway.)
maccer wrote:A logging table of course gives you a lot of info (and could maybe be used to track cheaters in some way) but it could grow huge. On the other hand, won't you need something like that for the performance analysis you're going to implement anyway?
I'm not too worried about data size right now. I've got an entire drive to fill. :D

Regarding performance analysis, that is a much richer kind of data. Right now I'm recording a single number per song performance. Performance analysis will require recording the onset and duration of every played note! I was going to be storing that locally for each user. I didn't expect that to be knowledge kept on the server.
maccer wrote:The question is how much that metric will tell you...
Yeah, definitely a few more sophisticated tracking bits will have to be added before something like that will work. Keeping an eye on both types of practice is probably a good call. Though, even just the highest score a user is able to earn is still useful information. That is, if the way you usually operate is to practice 50 times, your scores should uniformly be higher than people that don't do the same. So, it's still a useful data point.

And like Jim mentioned, you wouldn't think to start using that data until you had enough to smooth out the outliers. (Say, the one time you didn't practice 50 times, etc.)

maccer
Posts: 222
Location: Sweden

Post by maccer » 11-24-10 5:46 am

Nicholas wrote:I haven't looked at the numbers yet, but I'm guessing simple/anonymous usage is around 20x forum-user usage. I think over time that will shift, but for now, I'm happy knowing 20x more people are seeing that it exists than aren't.
But: can someone that has submitted an anonymous score still see on his/her own computer which of all the "(anonymous)" scores on the list belongs to him/her? If not, what's the point in being able to make an anonymous submission when you'll never be able to know what was your score again?

Creating a forum account is probably too much hassle, but creating a "simple" profile before submitting a score shouln't be too much to ask? Just write a name in a box and you're done!
Songs learned using Synthesia:
CT: Wind Scene, The Trial | FF7: Prelude | SMB: Overworld, Underwater | Tetris: Theme A | Zelda: Lost Woods | Other: Für Elise

Nicholas
Posts: 12351

Post by Nicholas » 11-24-10 6:09 am

maccer wrote:But: can someone that has submitted an anonymous score still see on his/her own computer which of all the "(anonymous)" scores on the list belongs to him/her?
Just as its submitted they can. Also, the "future (higher) scores overwrite old scores" still works for anonymous. If need be, later I could add a look-up for them. Every machine you run on, Synthesia generates some random junk and calls it a unique ID for the purposes of keeping track of simple and anonymous scores. It's not full-proof (just wipe or change the value of "System.Random" in the advanced section of the config tool), but manipulating it doesn't really buy you anything either.

I'll agree there isn't much value in anonymous scores, but I think there is some. Maybe a policy of having anonymous entries decay away after a week or something might work. That keeps the zero-configuration aspect, but also places even heavier incentive to make at the very least a simple profile.

Nicholas
Posts: 12351

Post by Nicholas » 11-27-10 12:38 am

Just added one extra line to the top-level scoreboard page to give a summary of the recent activity. Again, I'm kind of a data guy, so I can't help myself. Statistics are fun.

It will read something like "344 new high scores submitted by 167 players in the last 24 hours." Or, at least it does right now.

Kasper
Posts: 149
Location: Groningen, The Netherlands

Post by Kasper » 11-29-10 8:42 pm

G Major Music - First Pieces #1 Kasper 266559
Yeah :D

At least I can say that Im good in playing very silly songs.

It would be awesome if you could integrate buyable MIDI into synthesia !

By the way did you change something about the timing recently ? I found it really hard to get those perfects/greats, I thought it was easier in the past.
English was my worst subject on school, so my language could be a bit awkward sometimes...

Locked